In Search of The Truth .5

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8TH APRIL 1980 CONVERSATION WITH JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI AND PROF. DAVID BOHM

KRISHNAMURTI: To find the ground I must become terribly rational in my life. That’s all I start with. And irrationality has been brought about by thought creating this idea of me as separate from everybody else, etc., etc. So can I, being irrational, find the cause of irrationality and wipe it out? If I can’t do that I cannot reach the ground which is the most rational. Would a scientist who is investigating matter, to come upon the ground, he may not accept the ground exists at all.

BOHM: Well tacitly he is assuming that it does.

K: It does. Mr ‘X’ comes along and says it does exist. And you, the scientist, says, ‘Show it.’ Mr ‘X’ says ‘I will show it to you. First become rational in your life’. Not there, don’t as a scientist meeting with another scientist, experimenting and all the rest of THAT be rational there, and irrational in your life. Begin there rather than there. What would you say to all that?

B: Right. Well…

K: This must be done without effort, without desire, without will, without any sense of persuasion, otherwise you are back in the game.

QUESTIONER: Krishnaji are you supposing, or are you saying that the scientist can be rational here?

K: He says they are.

B: They are to some extent.

K: Of course. He says that. Sir, when scientists meet about something they are very rational.

Q: To some extent.

K: To some extent, yes.

B: Well eventually their personal relations come in and so on.

K: That’s is. They become irrational because of their jealousies and ambitions, or conflicts of theories and so on.

B: Well that is because they are attached to their theories and so on.

Q: Also the basic irrationality of them is that they think what they discover is the truth.

K: No, he doesn’t say that. Through the investigation of matter they hope to come upon the ground.

B: They may be wrong but that is what they hope for.

K: They must otherwise what is the point of investigating matter?

Q: Maybe there is no point.

B: In addition of course it is important for practical purposes and so on.

K: Practical purposes, yes for inventing guns and all the rest of it, submarines and super missiles.

B: Well also new energy sources and so on.

K: Of course, of course, that is only part of it.

B: That is part of it but in addition it may have an interest in itself but we have to say that – let’s try to put it like this: even in science you could not pursue the science fully unless you were rational.

K: Yes, somewhat rational.

B: Somewhat rational, but in fact eventually the failure of rationality blocks science anyway. Scientists alter their theories and they become jealous and so on.

K: That’s it. Or the irrationality overcomes them.

B: They cannot keep the irrationality out.

K: That’s it.

B: So then you could say you might as well look at the source of the whole irrationality.

K: That’s it. That is what I am saying.

B: That is the only possibility.

K: Yes.

B: But now you have to make it clear that it really can be done, you see.

K: Oh yes, I am showing it to you. I say first recognize, see, observe, be aware – or whatever word – that you are totally irrational.

B: Well the word ‘totally’ will cause trouble because if you were totally irrational you couldn’t even begin to talk, you see.

K: No, that is my question. I say you are totally irrational. First recognize it. Watch it. If the moment that you admit there is some part of you which is rational – right – who wants to wipe away the irrationality…

B: It is not that but there must be sufficient rationality to understand what you talking about.

K: Yes, of course.

B: Essentially I would rather put it that you are dominated by your irrationality, that irrationality dominates even though there is enough rationality to discuss the question.

K: I question that.

B: You see otherwise we couldn’t even begin to talk.

K: No, but listen. Just a minute, just a minute. We begin to talk, you, a few of us begin to talk because we are willing to listen to each other, we are willing to say ‘I’ll set aside any conclusion I have’, and so on, we are willing to listen to each other.

B: That is part of rationality.

K: No, with us, but the vast majority are not willing to listen to us because we are concerned, serious enough to find out if the ground exists. Right? That gives us rationality to listen to each other.

B: Yes. Well listening is essential for rationality.

K: What?

B: Listening is necessary for rationality.

K: Of course. Are we saying the same thing?

B: Yes.

K: Because as the scientist – wait a minute – as the scientist through the examination of matter, the investigation of matter hopes to reach the ground, we, ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’, say let us become rational in our life. Which means you and I and ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’ are willing to listen to each other. That’s all. The very listening is the beginning of rationality. Mr Carter, Mr K, they won’t even listen to us, not even the Pope, or anybody. So can we, who are listening, be rational somewhat and begin? That’s all my point. This is all being terribly logical, isn’t it? So can we proceed from there? Why has man brought about this irrationality in his life, and a few of us can apparently throw off some part of irrationality and become somewhat rational, ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’, and those rational people say, ‘Now, let’s start.’ Right? Let us start to find out why man lives this way, both the scientists and me, because he is a man, he is not just a scientist. Now what is the dominant factor in his life, the common, dominant factor in all human beings’ lives, apart from ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’ who are rational, including them, what is the dominant current in his life? Obviously thought.

B: Yes, that is so. Of course many people would, might deny that and say that it is feeling or something else is the major…

K: Many people might say that but thought is part of feeling.

B: Right. That is not commonly understood.

K: We will explain it. Senses, feeling, if there was no thought behind it you wouldn’t be able to recognize those senses.

B: Yes. I think this is a major difficulty in communication with some people.

K: Yes, so we begin. Leave the some people, I want the three ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’ to see this and ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’, because they listen to each other, because they have become somewhat rational, therefore they are listening to each other, can say thought is the main source of this current.

B: Yes, well we have to say what is thought.

K: I think that is fairly simple.

B: Well, what is it?

K: Thought brings about irrationality.

B: Yes, but what is it? How do you know you are thinking? What do you mean by thinking?

K: Thinking is the movement of memory, memory which is experience, knowledge stored up in the brain. Which you and I – we know all this.

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